Giving the Disabled a Voice in Airport Design - with Ernesto Morales

Clare Kumar: [: 00:00:00

Ernesto Morales: Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really honored.

Clare Kumar: Oh I'm excited. We met at the Madrid Passenger Terminal Expo, and I was so interested to hear what you're working on, and I thought our listeners would be too, anyone in aviation and beyond, and so I wanted to just give you an opportunity right off the top to describe the projects that you're working on right now.

Ernesto Morales: Concerning our travel, we have right now two projects that HA, that have been financed. One is inclusive airports in which we are evaluating, and we are developing evidence-based recommendations for the federal government on accessibility. And the second one is pretty much the same, but for airplane washrooms in six different models of the most.

at are used in Canada. Okay. [: 00:01:00

The things that doesn't or that should be improved, and how could they be improved? So we invited 24 participants in each airport at the end, 7, 8, 2. Of different kind of disabilities from motor visual hearing mild intellectual chronic pain chronic fatigue autism. Really, it, it was and also there were many participants that had.

tarted, we meeting, we would [: 00:02:00

Then we will go past security, go to the gate, go to the. End of the bridge and then go back to customs, pick up the luggage and get out of the airport. In the, in that process, we would record and each participant would tell us this doesn't work. Or this is wonderful. I love this. Or this is, this should be improved because of this and research.

Clare Kumar: I love it. Keep going. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And for the. After, after those the, this walking interviews, we we met again with with some of the participants. We worked on some possible solutions based on the literature review that we, we did before based on the recommendations of the participants.

And [: 00:03:00

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And then once we like modified everything. We presented that to the different partners, like the three airports, the different agencies, and the airlines. We haven't done the airlines yet, nor all the agencies, but we're in the process because at the end the idea is to provide suggestions that are feasible, that they can implement.

the airplane, but we're in, [: 00:04:00

Made in wood, but we painted it and it really looks very cool actually. It looks like a part of a plane. And we did that also for the laboratories and we invited participants to tell their stories and their experiences with the laboratory. What is great of having a setting like that is that it.

s an emergency, the stewards [: 00:05:00

So things like that, it's was very interesting.

Clare Kumar: That's, that is really interesting. And what I'm hearing is that it's so nuanced coming to talk to the people that are actually living that experience. They notice through having thought through or experienced the challenge, when you're interviewing you said 72 people through the airport and then another, now another group in these mockups, which sound fascinating.

Well done. So you're getting surprised by what you're hearing, things that you haven't considered and that haven't been considered in design. So in, as this study comes more towards fruition. What are the outcomes you're expecting then and with, from this audience there, there's gonna be airlines and third party service providers and the airports all looking at this.

What do you imagine will come from this work?

a report. Or for the federal [: 00:06:00

It is a bit more complicated because what we realized is that yeah, there are things of the physical environment that needs to be improved and things that we need to live with. For example, the really long distances that we cannot do anything about it in terms of we cannot shorten those distances because we have to accommodate these huge machines called airplanes.

pe people with disabilities. [: 00:07:00

Clare Kumar: Yeah, because there's a handoff between the person or entity that's managing the airport and then the airline and security. Exactly. Yeah. There are many different players, food and beverage. There's, yeah I'm learning that through my work with the Sunflower hidden Disability Sunflower Program.

Just the complexity, and I'm. Lucky to be talking to airports every week about that program. And so what I'm encouraged by is the intent to actually look after people. So I would echo it. And I'm have a particular Canadian focus and as do you, so for our listeners, but by the way, I just tallied, we have listeners from 69 countries.

global audience, and so I am [: 00:08:00

Ernesto Morales: The report for the federal government is public. And it's in both languages, French and English.

So it's not done yet. And it's in the process. Yeah. Yeah. But it'll be and it's public.

Clare Kumar: Okay. So listeners definitely check back here because we'll put in, we'll put a link in the show note as soon as it's public.

So you and I will be in touch. And of course we'll put a note there so people can find it because this kind of good work. Is it should be shared yeah.

Ernesto Morales: I think so too. However the report for the partners, they are, they will not be public.

Clare Kumar: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So of course no understand.

Understood. Yeah.

to your journey, how did you [: 00:09:00

Ernesto Morales: Well, aviation was, later I would say in rehabilitation because I'm at the school of rehabilitation of, it was because my mom had cancer. And bone cancer, and it's very painful. And at some point it was impossible to wash her because it was so painful and she would suffer a lot.

e still suffering. With pain [: 00:10:00

And and it's such a enriching and warm and. I dunno. It's a world that is very compassionate, very, there's a lot of empathy. There's the, I would say people are just wonderful in terms of they want to give the best care possible. Yeah. Of people that I don't know suffered an accident and they're in their rehabilitation process.

It's also very. Difficult [: 00:11:00

I do work a lot of with participants and I, the co-design method is something that I do in absolutely all my projects, and I listen very carefully because the thing is that we can imagine a lot of things of how should be things be better for them. But the reality is that in my case, I think I don't have a disability.

nce is amazing and we should [: 00:12:00

Clare Kumar: How did that happen?

How did it come from them to you?

Ernesto Morales: The previous project that I did was exactly the same for the federal government, but on heritage buildings, ah, evidence-based recommendations on accessibility for heritage buildings. Yeah. Again, we would be walking with them in the heritage sites. Yeah.

Like in Quebec. That's, we have that in Quebec. And and they will tell us, and we will talk about a lot of things and at some point they would mention, you know what, because Heritage, for some reason, it's related to tourism. And tourism trips and then. Airports.

are Kumar: Yeah. Yeah. I see [: 00:13:00

Disabilities work too. It, the initiative started at Gatwick and then it moved out with transit, and then it's destinations, events, the places people wanna go and and the belief that it's a right to travel and experience these things. And so it makes complete sense what you're saying there, that natural flow.

I'm curious now as I think about research and this I'm currently studying with Andrea Deva, who's a professor of neuroscience for architecture in a program designing with the end user in mind. Okay. And in one of her early classes, we were talking about looking at research and the value of quantitative research along with qualitative research and.

. Do you have to. Is there a [: 00:14:00

What's the quantitative aspect to this study to make it be like, oh, this is, can, should move from guideline to regulation potentially.

Ernesto Morales: We, I, and I forgot to say that part and I'm sorry. In addition to that, yeah. Pass the Reon Foundation accessibility certificate on each other.

Clare Kumar: Okay. Yep.

Ernesto Morales: So in order to have some objective data and compare it with the subjective one, that is the walking interviews.

Okay. 72 participants. It's a.

the study, be my guess, but [: 00:15:00

It's really certificate with we, I think we do have a lot of information to compare and to say, yeah, this is an evidence-based thing.

Clare Kumar: Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's wonderful. I was curious about that. So thank you for that nerdy question. Which I love this line of inquiry and how we make sure that this intelligence and insight then gets respected.

Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for that. In Canada in particular, then we've seen the federal government. Funding this. We have airport partners in. Can you comment on what you're noticing, but maybe with a broader than Canada scope? Can you tell me what you're noticing about where the appetite and the care is coming from?

ssion virtually under attack [: 00:16:00

Ernesto Morales: I think with the approval of the law of of the Canadian Act on accessibility in 2008 19 to promise completely accessible Canada in 2040.

That I think is the main incentive of everyone to say, yes, let's do this. Because they had to come. And the airports are federal, right? So Yes.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. There's federally regulation regulated organizations that have this mandate very clearly. Yeah. And so I see that as a driver. And when I'm in conversation, I see that.

e legal process. Let's set a [: 00:17:00

But in the US as well, who are. Nevermind what's happening out there. Our commitment is strong and the people's intent is strong to care for each other. So I'm seeing the marriage of the two, the red, the legislative and the moral imperative and the compassionate emergent of compassionate culture into actions we, practical actions we can take.

Ernesto Morales: Yeah and honestly I think in that sense in, in terms of.

There are a lot of things to [: 00:18:00

Yeah. But for example the fact that the federal government is investing in research to base their legislation on research. That's what research is about. That's why it's useful research. Yeah. There's a lot of things to do, but in that sense, and compared to other countries, I think we're in the right track and we, and the fact that I think it's a wonderful country to live in doesn't mean that we will stop and do nothing.

No, we'll work and we'll work very hard and that's what we're doing. Yeah. But but yeah, there are other countries unfortunately that it's not the same thing.

Clare Kumar: That's right. Within the federal government and where the funding is this coming out of transport? Is it coming out of wellbeing?

Is it coming out of accessibility? Where is the, where is your research being funded by,

y Standards Canada, I. Okay. [: 00:19:00

Yeah. And they are in working side by side with accessibility. Understand it.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. Oh, that's great. I think that it's really interesting to look at because it needs the attention of, like you're saying, we need the one person to be owning the conversation, but then it's. Intersects with health and wellbeing with, and the different verticals that we have.

So I'm curious, even at a municipal level, I live here in Toronto, we don't have an accessibility officer. We have a team of people and one email that you don't know who you're having a conversation with. So it's really interesting to look at how it's emerging. Even a country that is rather forward thinking on the topic.

about aviation is that it's [: 00:20:00

Are you noticing specific opportunities for the airports? To improve, and I have an idea to run by you. So I'm curious on what you're noticing from a sensory experience, which is included in disability, but I think is often not considered in our built environments, very [00:21:00] well, even in our urban planning especially in response to the latest LED technology and lighting sound dampening trends.

I'm curious what you're noticing there.

Ernesto Morales: So some of the. Solutions that we have explored particularly for for people with autism is the DRE just doesn't work. The smells of the duty-free and the lighting of the duty-free is difficult. There are a lot of people that just passing through the duty free.

It's a migraine no go and, for example, in terms of smells, it would be really the recommendation for the airports is to provide an alternative path. People for just not to pass through the be free. The problem with the airport is that also we build most of them with very hard materials.

And again, the [: 00:22:00

But that, that, that should be an option. Just put some panels that, or maybe movable panels, but just put them in such a way that cameras can see but that they can absorb some of the of the sound. Another, I would say the, probably the most critical part is, and most of all, because of the pressure and.

Because officers will tell [: 00:23:00

But still it's stressful and

Clare Kumar: and you're being watched, there's the observation piece too. That's a moment of heightened eyes on you. Which for some people can be stressful right there. Of course. What I find really challenging, and I appreciate. The design that allows me to unpack my things into a bin without the bin moving.

for understanding that are, [: 00:24:00

We're gonna make some time and space for that process as well.

Ernesto Morales: That is something that came up a lot. The order in the luggage, again, like you, a lot of people, they want things to be yeah, put it in a certain order and then while they're mixed up if your carry on luggage has to go through another, an extra process of.

Checking. Then they will have to move things. And again, unfortunately depends on the person that will be taking care of you. You have the person that is the most I don't Gentle and working and polite. Yeah. And others that not necessarily. Yeah, that's,

ect and you feel it's one of [: 00:25:00

You're, you are now being told and de powered, if you will. And so it's it's stressful from all those perspectives. I can tell you, having worn the lanyard through security, I have seen the look of recognition on the security person's face of the sunflower.

Just an instant softening.

Ernesto Morales: Okay.

Clare Kumar: And so there's a powerful tool in, to be able to suggest that let's invite that patience that our natural tendency as humans is to go to our biases and make assumptions. So I look at the sunflower as a tool to say, can we check those for a second and remember to stay curious and even in security we can be secure and.

Kind and compassionate and caring. Of course we can have all of those things.

haracteristics of the of the [: 00:26:00

Yeah. And, the stress can do what it can take out the worst on you. Yeah. And yes it's,

Clare Kumar: yeah. Yeah. It can invite that dysregulation and inability to think as well and respond as you would want to because of the pressure. I think I saw a video last week of somebody, some woman assaulting somebody in the security line, like the, as assaulting the security professional.

I'm thinking, oh dear, this is going sideways. And I've had, I remember in COVID having, trying to have a. Discussion with someone wearing a mask through the plastic. Yeah. And they wanted to I didn't wanna shout I don't wanna shout, start a shouting match to be understood. It was, there were extra barriers in that time even to, to staying calm and having that regulated conversation.

le of other questions around [: 00:27:00

And it's part of, I, I suppose it's also partly magnetic to the store. Bed, bath and Body Works would be another kind of store where scent is part of the experience. I'm thinking of that and I'm also thinking of advertising. I have a video clip and I may even be able to add it here, where there was advertising for a car company and they were showing flashing lightning.

So it was almost strobing light, which could be seizure triggering for some people. And I think airports have to be thoughtful about who they're inviting into this space. I know there's a big economic equation and some airports there's a total economic model. The duty free and the retail have to fund the airport essentially.

So how do we go [: 00:28:00

Ernesto Morales: That, that's a tough one. Because basically our understanding was that.

They're not taking any screens off. Screens are there and they will be maybe replaced for any newer ones. Yeah. So our or my position towards that was, okay, so we keep all these screens let's use it for way finding please. Because we can use them as with an advertising, but we can use them also if there's a change of gate.

y, there's this announcement [: 00:29:00

Clare Kumar: interesting that Yeah. To make it more useful to the traveler than just a sales conversation.

Exactly. Yes. That's really interesting. I think too I think about if we're going to have this sensory assault and some people can't look at screens, this is where I'm sensing the world is becoming. Really much harder to tolerate as someone who is sensitive. The number, the amount of input and stimulation.

We don't get to insulate from it as effectively. So my suggestion for airports, I hear a lot about sensory rooms.

Ernesto Morales: Yes, they are. Yes.

Clare Kumar: I want sensory zones. Through the airport. Regular sensory zones, well-marked, identified calm spaces because airports are hit, big one sensory zone and one wing isn't.

ice thought, but we actually [: 00:30:00

Ernesto Morales: definitely a recommendation that we did.

Okay. The airports, however, like everything else, there are some issues like fire alarm issues, for example. Yes. There are some sensory or calm spaces in an airport in which. There you have the rooms and the glass and it's a good lighting. However, it's open in the roof because if there's a fire, there has to be the sparkling to be able to go to that area as well.

Yeah. So even though. I don't think it worked very well because of the noise,

Clare Kumar: [: 00:31:00

I live in a, this condo and above my head is a speaker. And that alarm is so loud, it stresses me out. And thank goodness every alarm has been fall. A false alarm so far. But I actually talked to the equipment installers here and said, okay, can you do something for me? Help me understand the regulations.

Minimum 65 decibels in a corridor, minimum SE 75 in a bedroom. I said, I pulled out my noise meter and I said, that's 101 decibels over my head. And so they actually went into the device, which I'm not able to do, and they put sound dampening inside the device.

Ernesto Morales: That's good because

feet [: 00:32:00

I'm like, what? How is this? Okay? And then they have a panel. It's three buildings shared, 1,392 units or something. And when they, the panel is one fire panel for all these units. And when they do the shared spaces on every floor, they turn the panel they disconnect and connect. So I hear a click click, pop over my head.

For, I don't know, 140 floors. I'm seven click clicks. I'm like, you know what? No. So now I've, they've actually said, we're going to take care of you, and they're gonna turn a section of my there's 10 floors. Okay. For the period of that testing, they're gonna turn it off from me.

Ernesto Morales: Oh,

Clare Kumar: this is the kind of nuance.

That costs energy, intention, not a lot of dollars.

There's a lot of potential care,

Ernesto Morales: Absolutely.

people who are able to say, [: 00:33:00

Tell me what you think about silent airports.

Ernesto Morales: Well again. The silent airports meaning reducing significantly the noise

Clare Kumar: reducing, the, reducing the announcements.

Ernesto Morales: Yes.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: I think that's the way to go. Definitely. And something that needs to be taken also into consideration is sign language. Yes, agreed. For the recordings that we know that are there and for the boarding thing and for the change gate as well.

planes are these small pace [: 00:34:00

Yeah. And you are like stuck to the everyone. It's so just oh yeah. Everyone's and then the washrooms are even smaller

Clare Kumar: and full of derms. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: As I, I mentioned to you when, in, in our conversations earlier, I've been in accessibility for quite a long time or and as I started my conversation right in, in, in your podcast, I'm learning every time. And in the airport, for example, something that came out was dogs. If I need to travel with my dog because I have a PSD or I have an anxiety problem or I'm autistic and that helps me wear well just to control my anxiety.

d if I cannot take my dog to [: 00:35:00

Clare Kumar: And how does someone with a wheelchair, even access a bathroom

Ernesto Morales: Depends on the plane.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: Planes that would go to a transpacific or long, very long distances will. Usually an accessible washroom increase, the person can get in and will have the space to make the transfer.

Yeah. But that's the only place

in Moscow, brought her back [: 00:36:00

Ernesto Morales: So that that's a, that's an option and it's a terrible one. But that's, there are a lot of people that they have no other option than doing that.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And because it's. It's so small and the aisles are so small, and even though there's this Washington chair to move you to the washroom, if it's not a very long flight that will have and will accommodate a person with.

Yeah. A lot of people they just de dehydrate before I don't know. That's right. Start, stop drinking anything like six hours before or even more. Yeah.

is is not good for anything. [: 00:37:00

Exactly. As well as survival, so the dignity piece is there as well.

Ernesto Morales: Yeah. I find it so dehumanized as an environment, the whole air travel experience, and again, you don't have to have a disability to experience this dehumanization. Yeah. But of course for them it is way worse.

Clare Kumar: Yeah there's a lot of as you say incredible opportunity. I am really excited to see this work come out. Do you have a sense of timing on when, so

Ernesto Morales: the report has to be pro given by next year, maybe next summer.

Clare Kumar: Okay. The: 2026

Ernesto Morales: airport, for the airplane.[00:38:00]

Yes.

Clare Kumar: Okay. Yeah I I just wanna give you some. Thanks and appreciation for this, the work that you're doing it and again, listeners can hear this, is, this is a long-term project, right? It takes time to, to come up with the concept, to get the funding, to conduct the research, to write the report.

It's several years. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And also in, in the case of the airport, it's even, I don't know, it's harder because as I mentioned before. Someone needs to take responsibility of that. And that means changing the law and maybe take the European model of some airports that they, it's the airport that take the responsibility and things are better.

person with the disability. [: 00:39:00

Clare Kumar: So to be more clear about where the accountability and responsibility lies so that somebody says, oh, this is mine to solve.

Exactly. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And this is the quality of the service that I need to put. So all Canadian airports will that have the same degree and level of quality of the service. Of assistance. Because that's. How the airports need to engage.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. With one of the organizations I'm working with, I've seen the power of putting into an RFP request for proposal, the requirement. To have the Sunflower program in particular, which all of a sudden meant that the third party, the shared service providers are now saying, oh, this is something.

[: 00:40:00

And I think it's a similar model. It's building into saying this needs to be part of the conversation we're having when we're talking procurement. When we're talking service provisioning. Exactly. Exactly. And the airport is and the airlines all of it is the thinking. We've got such. Great opportunity.

We've got long timelines. I know that, what, 10 years to get a new airplane in, into product actually to in the fleet. So we've got opportunity, we've got bad technology in place now in terms of lighting and sound and so on. So we've got, to use maybe a flight now we've only got up to look at.

s be encouraged by your work [: 00:41:00

So this guidance and really not about us. Without us design thinking is really coming forward and being considered so. Is there any final words you'd like to say? Honestly, thank Ernesto or where people could find you or, thank you

Ernesto Morales: so much for inviting me. It's really a pleasure.

Clare Kumar: Thank you.

Thank you. Everybody check out the links that we've got in the podcast notes. I'm gonna stay closely in touch with you and that because I believe in this work so much and I'm so grateful. And we'll look forward to keeping up to date. Maybe we'll have you back on when the report comes out and we can talk about, we can talk about where we are with the the bathrooms and we can see the impact even more fully.

So thank you so much for being with me.

Ernesto Morales: Thank [: 00:42:00

Clare Kumar: Ernesto, welcome to the Happy Space Podcast.

Ernesto Morales: Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really honored.

Clare Kumar: Oh I'm excited. We met at the Madrid Passenger Terminal Expo, and I was so interested to hear what you're working on, and I thought our listeners would be too, anyone in aviation and beyond, and so I wanted to just give you an opportunity right off the top to describe the projects that you're working on right now.

t have been financed. One is [: 00:43:00

Airplane mo models that are used in Canada. Okay. So the first one, the one of airports, it's we choose three different airports depending on the scale, like from the smallest, the medium, and the largest. And we, we decided to invite people with disabilities and tell us which were the things that work because there are things that work.

. Of different kind of [: 00:44:00

Multiple problems. So yeah, that, that was very enriching. And basically what the good thing about the project is that we started, we meeting, we would meet individually with a participant in the entrance of the door, and then we pretend to have a travel. The meaning we would go to the airline to make the checking.

. Or this is, this should be [: 00:45:00

Clare Kumar: I love it. Keep going. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And for the. After, after those the, this walking interviews, we we met again with with some of the participants. We worked on some possible solutions based on the literature review that we, we did before based on the recommendations of the participants.

And also what is there in on the internet because there are a lot of solutions existing solutions already in place. So we presented what we found that could work and participants will tell us, yes, no, or maybe, and then we will design when it's my maybe or it doesn't work, and how can we make it work.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

different agencies, and the [: 00:46:00

So that's why we're doing like all this process. And we're doing basically the same thing with the laboratories in the airplane, but we're in, we're just starting that project. However, what is cool about that project is that we did some real size mockups of the segment of each model of the plane.

es with the laboratory. What [: 00:47:00

Participants will tell you yes about the laboratories, but also about other things that honestly we didn't thought about. Yes. For example, if there's an emergency and I cannot grab the mask or I cannot take the life vest from under my sit. Yeah. And there's an emergency, the stewards are very busy and they're trying to fix everything.

So things like that, it's was very interesting.

Clare Kumar: That's, that is really interesting. And what I'm hearing is that it's so nuanced coming to talk to the people that are actually living that experience. They notice through having thought through or experienced the challenge, when you're interviewing you said 72 people through the airport and then another, now another group in these mockups, which sound fascinating.

ised by what you're hearing, [: 00:48:00

What do you imagine will come from this work?

Ernesto Morales: I need to provide a report. Or for the federal government on both projects. I. Promise the report to each of our partners, meaning each airport with our recommendations, that was like part of the deal if you want. That's the result. What I would, what I'm wishing for is for people to really consider it and make some changes and however, in the airport.

eah, there are things of the [: 00:49:00

But, the problem I think, in the airports is the, is that there are a lot of people responsible for pe people with disabilities. And there is not one person or one entity saying, okay, I take responsibility. I'm in charge of them, and I will make sure that they get the assistance that they need.

Clare Kumar: Yeah, because there's a handoff between the person or entity that's managing the airport and then the airline and security. Exactly. Yeah. There are many different players, food and beverage. There's, yeah I'm learning that through my work with the Sunflower hidden Disability Sunflower Program.

e complexity, and I'm. Lucky [: 00:50:00

Oh wow, okay. Yes. Yeah, I was floored. I thought I should probably look this up. Yeah, so we have a global audience, and so I am curious, so there's a report going to the federal government. There'll be reports to your airlines as well. Is, are any of those recommendations likely to be shared publicly so that this work can be a resource that more people and our listeners perhaps can access and if so, we'll put a link here so that we'll be able to come back to that.

Ernesto Morales: The report for the federal government is public. And it's in both languages, French and English.

So it's not done yet. And it's in the process. Yeah. Yeah. But it'll be and it's public.

heck back here because we'll [: 00:51:00

So you and I will be in touch. And of course we'll put a note there so people can find it because this kind of good work. Is it should be shared yeah.

Ernesto Morales: I think so too. However the report for the partners, they are, they will not be public.

Clare Kumar: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So of course no understand.

Understood. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So coming back to, just coming back a little bit to your journey, how did you come to this work? You have experience in architecture and design. How is it that you decided to bring this thinking and expertise to aviation and then to those with disabilities? Give me a little of your story.

r. And bone cancer, and it's [: 00:52:00

And I was, at the end, I was helping the nurse to do it. So in order to make it better, but I was looking at that and I was, this is a design problem. And like my mom, I'm sure a lot of people are still suffering. With pain on such a basic activity, like just cleaning and so that was a strong thing for me that I, that design needs to address that. And little. I did my postdoc I did another postdoc and then I found myself in this, in the School of Rehabilitation. And I was thrilled because I was learning so much because as architect or designer, you don't know anything about health.

nd it's such a enriching and [: 00:53:00

It's also very. Difficult to see people that are struggling and, but at the same time, if you can help a little, just a little bit, that's very gratifying. So that was like the way I got into rehabilitation in terms of the project, of the specific project of the airport. Actually it was the idea of participants.

projects, and I listen very [: 00:54:00

Maybe I do, but I don't have a, a vis a visible disability. So I can only imagine. But they do know they, their lived experience is amazing and we should listen and they are the experts. So the idea of the airport of that was something that we should look at, came from them.

Clare Kumar: How did that happen?

How did it come from them to you?

in, we would be walking with [: 00:55:00

Like in Quebec. That's, we have that in Quebec. And and they will tell us, and we will talk about a lot of things and at some point they would mention, you know what, because Heritage, for some reason, it's related to tourism. And tourism trips and then. Airports.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. Yeah. I see that in the disabilities.

Disabilities work too. It, the initiative started at Gatwick and then it moved out with transit, and then it's destinations, events, the places people wanna go and and the belief that it's a right to travel and experience these things. And so it makes complete sense what you're saying there, that natural flow.

euroscience for architecture [: 00:56:00

In what you're doing. This is a totally nerdy question. I'm hearing the qualitative piece, the lived experience and turning into recommendations. Do you have to. Is there a bar that you have to clear in terms of numerical evidence to say, this study is really representative. Does it need to be repeated for people to pay attention?

What's the quantitative aspect to this study to make it be like, oh, this is, can, should move from guideline to regulation potentially.

Ernesto Morales: We, I, and I forgot to say that part and I'm sorry. In addition to that, yeah. Pass the Reon Foundation accessibility certificate on each other.

Clare Kumar: Okay. Yep.

es: So in order to have some [: 00:57:00

Okay. 72 participants. It's a.

Two hours, two hours and a half, depending on the size of the airport. Yeah. And so we have a lot of a lot of material. If someone wants to repeat the study, be my guess, but we do have a lot of. Of data and we're comparing them with, again, with literature review with the recon foundation.

It's really certificate with we, I think we do have a lot of information to compare and to say, yeah, this is an evidence-based thing.

igence and insight then gets [: 00:58:00

Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for that. In Canada in particular, then we've seen the federal government. Funding this. We have airport partners in. Can you comment on what you're noticing, but maybe with a broader than Canada scope? Can you tell me what you're noticing about where the appetite and the care is coming from?

Where we see another cultures right now, I see compassion virtually under attack and initiatives against inclusion and accessibility. So can you comment on what you're noticing and why you think this has been made an initiative in Canada and where that might go?

adian Act on accessibility in: 2008

That I think is the main incentive of everyone to say, yes, let's do this. [00:59:00] Because they had to come. And the airports are federal, right? So Yes.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. There's federally regulation regulated organizations that have this mandate very clearly. Yeah. And so I see that as a driver. And when I'm in conversation, I see that.

Yes. As a driver that gives deadlines and as a productivity expert for 20 years, I know the value of structure in moving things forward. Even in the legal process. Let's set a court date. Now we're gonna have a conversation, that structure is there. I also see and hear the commitment, and I work with people in all of, all around the world.

But in the US as well, who are. Nevermind what's happening out there. Our commitment is strong and the people's intent is strong to care for each other. So I'm seeing the marriage of the two, the red, the legislative and the moral imperative and the compassionate emergent of compassionate culture into actions we, practical actions we can take.

Ernesto Morales: Yeah and [: 01:00:00

Empathy, empathy and inclusion. I would say that Canada is one of the best places to live in. Honestly. We have a lot of problems as well, but compared to other countries. We're good. We're in a good place compared to others. There are a lot of things to do. Of course, there's a lot of work to do.

l country to live in doesn't [: 01:01:00

No, we'll work and we'll work very hard and that's what we're doing. Yeah. But but yeah, there are other countries unfortunately that it's not the same thing.

Clare Kumar: That's right. Within the federal government and where the funding is this coming out of transport? Is it coming out of wellbeing?

Is it coming out of accessibility? Where is the, where is your research being funded by,

Ernesto Morales: Accessibility Standards Canada, I. Okay. However, the priorities of activities, standards Canada come from different ministries like for example transport Canada. They are the one that are interested in all these regulations for for the laboratories, but also for the airport.

Yeah. And they are in working side by side with accessibility. Understand it.

one person to be owning the [: 01:02:00

So I'm curious, even at a municipal level, I live here in Toronto, we don't have an accessibility officer. We have a team of people and one email that you don't know who you're having a conversation with. So it's really interesting to look at how it's emerging. Even a country that is rather forward thinking on the topic.

ivity is on the higher side. [: 01:03:00

Are you noticing specific opportunities for the airports? To improve, and I have an idea to run by you. So I'm curious on what you're noticing from a sensory experience, which is included in disability, but I think is often not considered in our built environments, very well, even in our urban planning especially in response to the latest LED technology and lighting sound dampening trends.

I'm curious what you're noticing there.

ust passing through the duty [: 01:04:00

It's a migraine no go and, for example, in terms of smells, it would be really the recommendation for the airports is to provide an alternative path. People for just not to pass through the be free. The problem with the airport is that also we build most of them with very hard materials.

And again, the sound is, it can be difficult. Because it just reverberates everywhere. Yeah. And an option that we're suggesting to airports is to put some panels. Yeah. Observing sound. Observing panels. Yeah. Now this has to be put very carefully because apparently there are a lot of cameras in the airport just checking everything is going okay.

anels that, or maybe movable [: 01:05:00

Because officers will tell you empty your pockets. Take out your belt. Yeah. Move to the other one to the next thing to do. The, that part for everyone. You don't have to be able to Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's very stressful. And even though you're you didn't do anything wrong.

But still it's stressful and

appreciate. The design that [: 01:06:00

Yes, without the right, that's static. And then now the opportunity to put my bin in the queue. But to this sense of juggling things while moving is, for me, very overwhelming. I'm bound to drop something like, and I like things very ordered. I know what's where. Yeah. And I think there's even some respect for understanding that are, somebody might have taken great care to have things organized a certain way in their carry on, for example, you have to pull everything out and short time rummage it, put it back through, and there isn't a.

We're gonna make some time and space for that process as well.

r carry on luggage has to go [: 01:07:00

Checking. Then they will have to move things. And again, unfortunately depends on the person that will be taking care of you. You have the person that is the most I don't Gentle and working and polite. Yeah. And others that not necessarily. Yeah, that's,

Clare Kumar: This is right. And you're subject and you feel it's one of those places where you don't really have a voice.

You're, you are now being told and de powered, if you will. And so it's it's stressful from all those perspectives. I can tell you, having worn the lanyard through security, I have seen the look of recognition on the security person's face of the sunflower.

Just an instant softening.

Ernesto Morales: Okay.

that our natural tendency as [: 01:08:00

Kind and compassionate and caring. Of course we can have all of those things.

Ernesto Morales: Because I think the, what character? I, sorry. I think that what one of the characteristics of the of the airport is that is a very stressful environment. It's like the hospital the equivalent of level of stress would be a hospital.

Yeah. And, the stress can do ho it's can take out the worst on you. Yeah. And yes it's,

Clare Kumar: yeah. Yeah. It can invite that dysregulation and inability to think as well and respond as you would want to because of the pressure. I think I saw a video last week of somebody, some woman assaulting somebody in the security line, like the, as assaulting the security professional.

I'm thinking, [: 01:09:00

I have a couple of other questions around sensory experience at airports. One of them is around. Advertising and retail choices. So I'm thinking of beautiful lush bath products and I happen to live very near where they're produced actually in Otoko. Beautiful line of products, sensory overwhelm.

even be able to add it here, [: 01:10:00

So it was almost strobing light, which could be seizure triggering for some people. And I think airports have to be thoughtful about who they're inviting into this space. I know there's a big economic equation and some airports there's a total economic model. The duty free and the retail have to fund the airport essentially.

So how do we go further than just even the airport built environment to say, who are we inviting in and how are we mitigating that? So duty free is one example, but it extends into the not contained areas and the advertising that comes in.

Ernesto Morales: That, that's a tough one. Because basically our understanding was that.

replaced for any newer ones. [: 01:11:00

Yes. Just to put them all together and say, there's this announcement written one. So at the same time in all the screens so that people will know that there is a change of gait. Yeah. That's

Clare Kumar: interesting that Yeah. To make it more useful to the traveler than just a sales conversation.

number, the amount of input [: 01:12:00

We don't get to insulate from it as effectively. So my suggestion for airports, I hear a lot about sensory rooms.

Ernesto Morales: Yes, they are. Yes.

Clare Kumar: I want sensory zones. Through the airport. Regular sensory zones, well-marked, identified calm spaces because airports are hit, big one sensory zone and one wing isn't.

Isn't is course. It's a nice thought, but we actually need places of rest and respite all the way through because you might have that assault in one place, that sensory room, you're never gonna make it to it. What are your thought, what are your thoughts on that idea? That's

Ernesto Morales: definitely a recommendation that we did.

aces in an airport in which. [: 01:13:00

Yeah. So even though. I don't think it worked very well because of the noise,

Clare Kumar: it leaded too much sound in, of course. So then it needs to be designed even with a little more thought to bring the, just the alarm into that space. I, it's interesting, I've had recent conversations here.

ay, can you do something for [: 01:14:00

Minimum 65 decibels in a corridor, minimum SE 75 in a bedroom. I said, I pulled out my noise meter and I said, that's 101 decibels over my head. And so they actually went into the device, which I'm not able to do, and they put sound dampening inside the device.

Ernesto Morales: That's good because

Clare Kumar: I asked for it. But otherwise, 101 decibels, 10 feet from my head.

I'm like, what? How is this? Okay? And then they have a panel. It's three buildings shared, 1,392 units or something. And when they, the panel is one fire panel for all these units. And when they do the shared spaces on every floor, they turn the panel they disconnect and connect. So I hear a click click, pop over my head.

even click clicks. I'm like, [: 01:15:00

Ernesto Morales: Oh,

Clare Kumar: this is the kind of nuance.

That costs energy, intention, not a lot of dollars.

There's a lot of potential care,

Ernesto Morales: Absolutely.

Clare Kumar: For people who are able to say, identify, and then design to it. So this is the kind of, I follow these lines of so what could be done? What could be done? What could be done? And I think there's opportunity.

Tell me what you think about silent airports.

Ernesto Morales: Well again. The silent airports meaning reducing significantly the noise

Clare Kumar: reducing, the, reducing the announcements.

Ernesto Morales: Yes.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

n language. Yes, agreed. For [: 01:16:00

But anyway agreed. Fully agreed. I wanted to just add the thing of the washrooms Yeah. And people with with the autism in planes, because that's a very, that's another thing because. In airports, there's these huge spaces with a lot of noise and a lot of people, and the planes are these small pace spaces with a lot of noise and a lot of people as well.

Yeah. And you are like stuck to the everyone. It's so just oh yeah. Everyone's and then the washrooms are even smaller

Clare Kumar: and full of derms. Yeah.

in, in, in your podcast, I'm [: 01:17:00

Yeah. I cannot take my dog to. To the washroom. And if I cannot take my dog to the washroom, I'm in a very small confined space that doesn't help to my anxiety, plus the fact that I'm leaving my dog to someone else. Yeah. Yeah. So where do dogs and this feeding the bat in in, in the planes that, that's clearly something that, this have has not been any thought about. That it will be worth exploring.

Clare Kumar: And how does someone with a wheelchair, even access a bathroom

rales: Depends on the plane. [: 01:18:00

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: Planes that would go to a transpacific or long, very long distances will. Usually an accessible washroom increase, the person can get in and will have the space to make the transfer.

Yeah. But that's the only place

Clare Kumar: I picked up a friend of mine who had a stem cell transplant in Moscow, brought her back through Warsaw after the transplant in a wheelchair. With her walker and like with everything. And she had to wear a diaper on the plane because it was like not even thinking that it was gonna be an option.

Ernesto Morales: So that that's a, that's an option and it's a terrible one. But that's, there are a lot of people that they have no other option than doing that.

Clare Kumar: Yeah.

the aisles are so small, and [: 01:19:00

Yeah. A lot of people they just de dehydrate before I don't know. That's right. Start, stop drinking anything like six hours before or even more. Yeah.

Clare Kumar: And that's not good for the brain or managing like this. This is not good for anything. No. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting that, accessibility is for the access, but it's also to be incorporating treatment with dignity through this.

Exactly. As well as survival, so the dignity piece is there as well.

But of course for them it is [: 01:20:00

Clare Kumar: Yeah there's a lot of as you say incredible opportunity. I am really excited to see this work come out. Do you have a sense of timing on when, so

Ernesto Morales: the report has to be pro given by next year, maybe next summer.

Clare Kumar: Okay. The: 2026

Ernesto Morales: airport, for the airplane.

Yes.

Clare Kumar: Okay. Yeah I I just wanna give you some. Thanks and appreciation for this, the work that you're doing it and again, listeners can hear this, is, this is a long-term project, right? It takes time to, to come up with the concept, to get the funding, to conduct the research, to write the report.

It's several years. Yeah.

also in, in the case of the [: 01:21:00

Of course not. No, nothing is perfect and there's still some flaws but it's better for the person with stability. So those things that need to. Come up and think and to have the will to say, okay, let's change things.

Clare Kumar: So to be more clear about where the accountability and responsibility lies so that somebody says, oh, this is mine to solve.

Exactly. Yeah.

Ernesto Morales: And this is the quality of the service that I need to put. So all Canadian airports will that have the same degree and level of quality of the service. Of assistance. Because that's. How the

airports [: 01:22:00

Ernesto Morales: need to, I don't know. To engage.

Clare Kumar: Yeah. With one of the organizations I'm working with, I've seen the power of putting into an RFP request for proposal, the requirement. To have the Sunflower program in particular, which all of a sudden meant that the third party, the shared service providers are now saying, oh, this is something.

And I recently, you might have met Dr. Ivan Berazhny at In Madrid as well. I was talking to him about his training through the eu. About accessibility in aviation and making it something that his he's talking about, why isn't it on our job requirements that we're requiring accessibility training.

airport is and the airlines [: 01:23:00

We've got long timelines. I know that, what, 10 years to get a new airplane in, into product actually to in the fleet. So we've got opportunity, we've got bad technology in place now in terms of lighting and sound and so on. So we've got, to use maybe a flight now we've only got up to look at.

So let's let's be encouraged by your work and the people that are supporting the research. And then hopefully the invitation here from the podcast is for listeners to share this with your airport, to share the opportunity to share Dr. Mor Morales's work and the report when it's available.

So this guidance and really not about us. Without us design thinking is really coming forward and being considered so. Is there any final words you'd like to say? Honestly, thank Ernesto or where people could find you or, thank you

o much for inviting me. It's [: 01:24:00

Clare Kumar: Thank you.

Thank you. Everybody check out the links that we've got in the podcast notes. I'm gonna stay closely in touch with you and that because I believe in this work so much and I'm so grateful. And we'll look forward to keeping up to date. Maybe we'll have you back on when the report comes out and we can talk about, we can talk about where we are with the the bathrooms and we can see the impact even more fully.

So thank you so much for being with me.

Ernesto Morales: Thank you. Thank you.